Items you think are overrated? (2024)

Shyguymask said:

It's the other way around, Vampire Frog outclasses Imp Staff. In fact, Imp Staff is outclassed by Flinx Staff. In fact, it struggles to outdo Finch Staff in boss fights. I tested & compared these a ton. In reality, Imp Staff is very overrated and it does not perform remotely as well as its recipe (Hellstone) & reputation would suggest.

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See, this is why I am scared of using minions in my builds (I play classless). There is a possibility of that minion being so bad that I might do better without it

Shyguymask said:

Minishark is underrated these days if anything because of many people erroneously claiming Musket/Undertaker outclasses it when that is not true, at least not when it comes to damage output.

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I think Terrasteel had a video about this, Minishark is bad against high defense enemies I remember

Meowlegend said:

I think Terrasteel had a video about this, Minishark is bad against high defense enemies I remember

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And it's like the only genuinely bad (arguments-wise) video he's ever made. As far as I remember he didn't take Tungsten/Silver bullets into account, which Minishark benefits hugely more from. Additionally, he bizarrely tried to downplay Shark Tooth Necklace when not only is it a great accessory, but most optimized pre-hm builds use STN no matter the weapon, at least until Post-Skeletron. STN is meta, saying I quote "it's not too wise to use the Shark Tooth Necklace" is just an absurd claim to make, no offense to Terrasteel. Yet another thing Terrasteel didn't take into account is that when you actually play the game, you'll have some % damage bonuses which will bump up Minishark's base damage by one or two points, further reducing the impact of enemy defense. In fact, considering he used the number 13 as Minishark's damage per hit (base damage + musket ball), it appears he didn't even use it with reforges, which is yet another reduction of the impact of enemy defense.

In reality, when tested with proper gear against King Slime (10 Defense), Minishark edges out both Musket and Undertaker in killtimes (Green is Minishark, Red is Undertaker, Purple is Musket):

Shyguymask said:

“it's not too wise to use the Shark Tooth Necklace”

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Bro what accessories am I supposed to use, there’s like no other damage accessories in prehardmode besides pygmy necklace.

Shyguymask said:

And it's like the only genuinely bad (arguments-wise) video he's ever made.

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Could be true, he makes good videos in general but it wouldn't be surprising if he made a bad one.

Shyguymask said:

As far as I remember he didn't take Tungsten/Silver bullets into account, which Minishark benefits hugely more from.

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That is rather weird. I think he didn't remember that at the time you would get the Megashark you would not use the Musket balls.

Shyguymask said:

Additionally, he bizarrely tried to downplay Shark Tooth Necklace when not only is it a great accessory, but most optimized pre-hm builds use STN no matter the weapon, at least until Post-Skeletron. STN is meta, saying I quote "it's not too wise to use the Shark Tooth Necklace" is just an absurd claim to make, no offense to Terrasteel.

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Downplaying Shark Tooth Necklace like that is even weirder. It's basically the only damage accessory in Pre-Hardmode aside from pygmy necklace. And its really good, too.

Shyguymask said:

Yet another thing Terrasteel didn't take into account is that when you actually play the game, you'll have some % damage bonuses which will bump up Minishark's base damage by one or two points, further reducing the impact of enemy defense. In fact, considering he used the number 13 as Minishark's damage per hit (base damage + musket ball), it appears he didn't even use it with reforges, which is yet another reduction of the impact of enemy defense.

In reality, when tested with proper gear against King Slime (10 Defense), Minishark edges out both Musket and Undertaker in killtimes (Green is Minishark, Red is Undertaker, Purple is Musket):

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Thats good to know for me. I never considered Minishark necessary, but maybe its better than I remember.

TheRatsNest said:

The Zenith

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Do you know what "overrated" means?

TheRatsNest said:

but there’s nothing to really use it on

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Same argument could be done to all Post Moon Lord weapons, but that wouldn't be exactly true either.

TheRatsNest said:

The Zenith. It’s cool and all, but there’s nothing to really use it on, and if you want to re-use the Terrablade or any of its components, you’ll have to recraft the entire recipe.

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Post moon lord is the sandbox tier, you NEED a delete button for testing and building purposes, especially if you aren’t playing journey mode.

Dapling said:

Post moon lord is the sandbox tier, you NEED a delete button for testing and building purposes, especially if you aren’t playing journey mode.

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Honestly, Lunar Flare, Terraprisma, and Lunar Portal do that job just as well, at least for me; What are you fighting that takes more than a few frames to kill? Zenith really doesn't seem all that much better at being a delete button than any other wall-ignoring attack. It's better at killing bosses and invasions, sure, but once you have the Zenith, you've already done all of those anyway, and the most threatening ones can either be instantly skipped or don't happen without your consent; I don't really see the point, since whatever's bothering you while you're building or testing is going to get deleted in a few frames regardless of which tile-ignoring weapon you choose.

Coleyohley said:

Honestly, Lunar Flare, Terraprisma, and Lunar Portal do that job just as well, at least for me; What are you fighting that takes more than a few frames to kill? Zenith really doesn't seem all that much better at being a delete button than any other wall-ignoring attack. It's better at killing bosses and invasions, sure, but once you have the Zenith, you've already done all of those anyway, and the most threatening ones can either be instantly skipped or don't happen without your consent; I don't really see the point, since whatever's bothering you while you're building or testing is going to get deleted in a few frames regardless of which tile-ignoring weapon you choose.

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Unfortunately there is no way to skip pirate invasions and martians is incredibly easy to summon accidentally. Pirates can maybe be deleted in a few frames by those, but good luck doing that with martian saucers.

Dapling said:

Post moon lord is the sandbox tier, you NEED a delete button for testing and building purposes, especially if you aren’t playing journey mode.

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You know what? I’ve honestly never seen it like that before. You’ve successfully changed a persons mind on the Internet.

Shyguymask said:

And it's like the only genuinely bad (arguments-wise) video he's ever made. As far as I remember he didn't take Tungsten/Silver bullets into account, which Minishark benefits hugely more from. Additionally, he bizarrely tried to downplay Shark Tooth Necklace when not only is it a great accessory, but most optimized pre-hm builds use STN no matter the weapon, at least until Post-Skeletron. STN is meta, saying I quote "it's not too wise to use the Shark Tooth Necklace" is just an absurd claim to make, no offense to Terrasteel. Yet another thing Terrasteel didn't take into account is that when you actually play the game, you'll have some % damage bonuses which will bump up Minishark's base damage by one or two points, further reducing the impact of enemy defense. In fact, considering he used the number 13 as Minishark's damage per hit (base damage + musket ball), it appears he didn't even use it with reforges, which is yet another reduction of the impact of enemy defense.

In reality, when tested with proper gear against King Slime (10 Defense), Minishark edges out both Musket and Undertaker in killtimes (Green is Minishark, Red is Undertaker, Purple is Musket):

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What are those three runs representing? Three attempts with the same loadout? Or different loadouts?

Lucky1 said:

What are those three runs representing? Three attempts with the same loadout? Or different loadouts?

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Same loadout, Shark Tooth Necklace + Tungsten/Silver bullets.

Boomstick. It's accuracy/speed makes it bad for enemies with small hitboxes (e.g. bats), which is important for an early game weapon. May be better than minishark/evil guns on bosses, but the minishark is good enough for skeletron on every difficulty, and you don't have to worry at all your shots missing, so I personally prefer it.
Once you defeat skeletron you unlock the handgun/phoenix blaster which just outclasses every other pre-hardmode gun and renders the boomstick useless.

It is a decent weapon but it's definitely overrated, I only use it in the short period before getting a minishark, which means only on EoC and maybe BoC.

Shyguymask said:

Same loadout, Shark Tooth Necklace + Tungsten/Silver bullets.

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When there is something clearly wrong with them. Minishark and Musket ones have too much discrepancy in them. Its about 15% percent and accumulates across the whole run so its hardly the damage RNG unless Terraria picks RNG seed for each individual boss entity. And if it still is this means that the results are useless: one of the runs for the one gun can be "best of 1000" while for the other gun "worst of 1000" hence 3 runs are not even close to be representative.

Lucky1 said:

When there is something clearly wrong with them. Minishark and Musket ones have too much discrepancy in them. Its about 15% percent and accumulates across the whole run so its hardly the damage RNG unless Terraria picks RNG seed for each individual boss entity. And if it still is this means that the results are useless: one of the runs for the one gun can be "best of 1000" while for the other gun "worst of 1000" hence 3 runs are not even close to be representative.

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Or maybe Minishark simply has higher DPS than Musket?

Shyguymask said:

Or maybe Minishark simply has higher DPS than Musket?

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Maybe. Maybe not. You can't tell for sure from those results. If you are trying to prove your point through statistical data it requires way more of it for the analysis.

As a rule of thumb Minishark is supposed to provide the most even results because it makes most shots of the three. For the same reason Musket should be the most uneven - less shots in general meaning result of each one is more noticeable.

Also, the stable nature of the difference between runs is crying out loud what there is something wrong with them. Yes you are supposed to get series of shots with max/min damage. But they are supposed to even themselves out across the run. However all the runs were predefined in the first half. Meaning that there was one series of the events in the first half what defined the whole run. And not a single run have that series in the second half.

This is abnormal.

If it was me who was doing the analysis I'd discard the whole thing.

Lucky1 said:

Maybe. Maybe not. You can't tell for sure from those results.

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No, I can. Especially considering we can also refer to Terrasteel's math for additional evidence. My killtimes suggest Minishark edges out Undertaker/Musket, Terrasteel's math suggests Minishark edges out Undertaker/Musket in the same scenario. We are seeing this both in math and in actual gameplay. What more proof is needed?

Lucky1 said:

As a rule of thumb Minishark is supposed to provide the most even results because it makes most shots of the three. For the same reason Musket should be the most uneven - less shots in general meaning result of each one is more noticeable.

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This doesn't really make a difference. Shooting more bullets also means there are many more opportunity for individual bullets to miss the target.

Lucky1 said:

Also, the stable nature of the difference between runs is crying out loud what there is something wrong with them. Yes you are supposed to get series of shots with max/min damage. But they are supposed to even themselves out across the run. However all the runs were predefined in the first half. Meaning that there was one series of the events in the first half what defined the whole run. And not a single run have that series in the second half.

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I genuinely cannot comprehend what you're trying to say with this. But fundamentally, I know & can prove that killtime tests on the hand of an experienced player, because I've been doing killtime testing and speedkilling alike for years whether for fun or do settle heated debates. To dispel the myth about killtimes tests being inconsistent and unreliable, here's a few examples of unrelated tests I did:

It's very plausible to play consistently and in turn get similar killtime against most bosses and with most weapons. The King Slime gun tests I shared are not any different, things are only a few seconds apart from each other at most. The biggest noticeably gap which is the slowest Musket killtime vs. the fastest, is only a difference of 2 seconds.

Shyguymask said:

No, I can. Especially considering we can also refer to Terrasteel's math for additional evidence. My killtimes suggest Minishark edges out Undertaker/Musket, Terrasteel's math suggests Minishark edges out Undertaker/Musket in the same scenario. We are seeing this both in math and in actual gameplay. What more proof is needed?

This doesn't really make a difference. Shooting more bullets also means there are many more opportunity for individual bullets to miss the target.

I genuinely cannot comprehend what you're trying to say with this. But fundamentally, I know & can prove that killtime tests on the hand of an experienced player, because I've been doing killtime testing and speedkilling alike for years whether for fun or do settle heated debates. To dispel the myth about killtimes tests being inconsistent and unreliable, here's a few examples of unrelated tests I did:

(Comparing Menacing (Red) Vs. Lucky (Blue) on the same build)
View attachment 471433View attachment 471435
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It's very plausible to play consistently and in turn get similar killtime against most bosses and with most weapons. The King Slime gun tests I shared are not any different, things are only a few seconds apart from each other at most. The biggest noticeably gap which is the slowest Musket killtime vs. the fastest, is only a difference of 2 seconds.

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You can tell. But not for sure. Because making sure about something with the statistics requires alot of data. And if your data is inconsistent and abnormal you throw it away. Just as I said. And just as you do by getting to calculated results. And no, they do not work as a proof that statistical data is accurate. Because Terrasteel calculations doesn't even include accuracy and the expected difference according to them is about 25 percent (Minishark has 25 percent more raw dps than Musket or Undertaker). So if anything they serve only against your testing.

Normally, probability of missing is fixed so firing a larger number of bullets work the other way around - you are more likely to hit the target. What you are talking about may be only due to either one weapon having worse accuracy over time or a shooter intentionally missing a target.

And the last one. What I was trying to say is that all your runs were decided in the first half what is highly improbable assuming that they were truly random.

Shyguymask said:

It's the other way around, Vampire Frog outclasses Imp Staff. In fact, Imp Staff is outclassed by Flinx Staff. In fact, it struggles to outdo Finch Staff in boss fights. I tested & compared these a ton. In reality, Imp Staff is very overrated and it does not perform remotely as well as its recipe (Hellstone) & reputation would suggest.

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Really? I've never found any issue using imp staff in expert pre hard mode. The imp staff is also pretty helpful in the second phase of Queen Slime, when the spiders can't reach her. The frog staff is fine, Im probably just salty about how long it took for me to get it.

Lucky1 said:

You can tell. But not for sure.

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Frankly, on what grounds are you standing on to make such a conclusion against someone who has been grinding speedkills & testing weapon killtimes for years? If you know better than I do, then what's your better alternative to comparing weapon viability?

Lucky1 said:

Because making sure about something with the statistics requires alot of data. And if your data is inconsistent and abnormal you throw it away.

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There is a lot of data when I killtime test, and they are mostly consistent. No problem here.

Lucky1 said:

Because Terrasteel calculations doesn't even include accuracy and the expected difference according to them is about 25 percent (Minishark has 25 percent more raw dps than Musket or Undertaker). So if anything they serve only against your testing.

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The spread of the Minishark makes no real difference in boss fights, because bosses are large enough that you can hit them consistently as long as you aim. This is the same reason Boomstick is amazing against pre-hardmode bosses despite its high spread. As for mobbing, while it does makes hitting far-away enemies unviable, it's still overall more reliable than Musket for handling regular enemies (ammo consumption aside) because it attacks extremely faster and thus can switch target & re-adjust aim constantly.